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Draft Handover? DAO guidelines

Gerrald

Active Pivian
Let's start work on some handover guidelines discussions public.

What happens when a dev is voted out?

What happens if an admin is voted out?

What happens if a community person is voted out?

If whoevers voted down in the budget how are they expected to act? Handover all keys? Remove logins? Denounce themselves as pivxcore? (Whatever that is)

Guidelines need to be set for procedure of removing people that some people consider them essential parts in the puzzle.

A time frame, information given etc needs to be discussed.

This is a dao. No one here is guaranteed to be paid from the budget if they are not voted in. If they are not voted in that should be a default you are no longer pivx team and your control rights are removed....

The passover of this control is what needs to be discussed. This is also a bonus as those who already have control are usually the ones that are reluctant to diacuss the rules om how to hand it control back.

The admin control on the forum, discord, socials is already a good sign of how this power has gone to peoples heads.
 
Great conversation happening! Let's try it another way. What happens when you no longer get funded?

Do you work for free?

Will you move on without a rant?

How bitter will you be? Will this bitterness lead to you causing harm to PIVX which should be the number one thing on everyone's mind....

Dev gets voted out can they delete the git hub?

Can they insert malicious code into the download releases? Let me answer that for you. Yes they can and has been done on other coins and you wouldn't even notice until it was to late.

If your in charge of the socials this can cause serious harm to the brand especially if their bitterness causes them to kamikaze the account.

Admin/moderator accounts on the social media create a sense of authority and banning people of different views or saying something you don't like has happened and is still happening. Just gotta look at the telegram to see that happening currently plus past experience.

CORE PIVX members or whatever you want to be called, you have no authority and you are not pivx. Your view is no different to any other persons except you have a colour on our name and have been granted banning and deleting power which you shouldn't have. You are no one but a branch of a whale who has asserted his control and placed these positions with no opposition.

Hopefully a discussion can happen but if not everyone needs to remember the votes control pivx funding which controls the direction on pivx not this group of people and I am glad recently this control has dwindled and more votes are happening to stop these money grab proposals. You can ban and silence views on some platforms but I guarantee if/once your funding is cut you won't be sticking around.
 
You touch on many points. Each one needs clarification. I will try and group them and answer what I can, when I can. But first, I need to point out a major flaw in your logic.

You imply that if someone is not voted in (I presume you mean via MNO Treasury Vote for a Proposal) then that person is not part of the team. How does that work for the 90%+ of effort building PIVX over the years, that was done by volunteers? Many are STILL volunteering. Are you saying they should never have volunteered? Or that they shouldn't have access to anything to actually do the volunteer work? This is exactly why the PIVX DAO is more than just the MNOs voting on proposals. It is the Community too. In fact, that is by far a much larger part of it. This is why the MNOs can only control the flow of funds.

You can't stop a PIVian from volunteering. If you could, pretty much anyone could kill PIVX. Who gets to do what in PIVX, is based on the Meritocracy organization model. The more ability and talent you have, the more power and authority you get. Your wealth does not matter. For example, briefly, I was the PIVX Business Development Manager, because there was a need, and no one else was available. Recognizing Jeffrey is WAY WAY better at it than me, and given I was really just a temporary 'place-holder', I immediately did a hand-over. Why? Because that was the best for PIVX. No MNO vote required. Jeffrey then quickly proved himself first by volunteering for a month, and then submitted a proposal. Having said that, if there were multiple people doing Business Development, AND submitting proposals, I'm pretty sure Jeffrey would have left the others in the dust and the MNOs would have stopped funding the others.

Now, I will address the points I think apply to Development. Note, I have not developed code for almost 10 years, and I was 'good', but not 'great'. I used GitHub but in a minimal fashion.

Development:

Devs are not voted in or out.

All start by volunteering, picking an issue to resolve, completing it, and submitting a PR. That is then reviewed by a other Devs, following a long standing and proven process.

If they are having fun contributing, but don't want the deadlines and pressure that comes with submitting a proposal, they can just keep volunteering. However, once they prove themselves, they can submit a proposal to be paid.

If it passes and they get paid, they are expected to deliver what they said they would. If they fail to do so, they can explain, and perhaps keep working without additional funding until it is done or explain why it became far more work than anyone could have known, and request more funding in the next proposal.

If it fails to pass and they want to keep working, perhaps at a slower pace, they are welcome to do so.

If it fails and they need to move to a paying gig, that's fine too.

The way GitHub works, is code is written and the Dev asks for it to be merged into the code base. There have been times when code was ready to merge, but the long standing process that protects all the Devs, requires a certain number of reviewers before code is merged. The purpose of this is so that if the Dev tries to insert malicious code, it will be caught, and that Dev will be ejected from the team. Or, a legitimate bug was missed by everyone, and it would create a vulnerability that could be exploited. If a sole Developer, or even only 2, reviewed the code, and honestly let a bug slip thru, then that mistake could not only severely damage PIVX, the Internet trolls would assume they did it on purpose, and eat them alive. This is why v6.0 progress is so slow - because there are not enough Devs available to review the code submitted. The scenario you reference was likely a case of a single Developer, or too few reviewers, or an organized coup. Having multiple reviewers (I am not certain the number currently required) protects everyone from both malicious efforts, and honest mistakes.

Also, the way GitHub works, is that there are copies of the code base on every Developer's computer, plus on GitHub etc. Control over the GitHub account itself stays with only the most trusted individual(s). Not every Developer can delete the GitHub repositories.

We don't need to create guidelines how to handle these scenarios. They are already in place, (written or verbal - it doesn't matter) and have worked for PIVX since 2016, as well as pretty much any of the millions of Open Source projects out there since the GPL was created.

In fact, detailing the PIVX Specific details in guidelines could be considered poor Op-Sec.

I am not sure why you want to control GitHub access. You know nothing about it. I personally know very little, and I am perfectly fine with the way things are. In fact, even if it were possible to have MNOs control GitHub access, I bet that would be FAR riskier to PIVX than just letting the professionals take care of that. People don't know everything that goes on in the background, nor do they need to. Life is much easier when you trust the right people and let them do their thing.

I should add this .... you are implying that who the Developers are, who has what level of access to GitHub, and who controls GitHub, etc. etc, all be CENTRALIZED with the MNOs, who are pretty much IGNORANT of the knowledge needed to make those decisions. That's a recipe for dissaster.

That's all I have to say for now. Going to go watch the sunset over the Pacific now. Cheers!
 
Actually, in one way or another, I believe I have already explained each point. Some thru example, or via explaining the PIVX DAO is much more than just MNO votes, or that PIVX is a Meritocracy, or that PIVX was, and still is, largely built by Volunteers. Even those that get paid, often contribute far more time than they were paid for, making them volunteers still too.

If you see some area that can be done better for PIVX, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from proving that by first volunteering and then submitting a competing proposal. That's how it has always worked in PIVX.
 
I was really hoping for some feedback @Gerrald . You asked for discussion, but you are not participating yet.

To be honest, your views and facts are so wrong, I bet it scares good developers from considering joining PIVX. Actually, not just developers, but ANY SKILLED person. Would be great if you could concede where you were wrong, so that we can grow PIVX faster.
 
Here is ONE example. There are many.

You are still adamant that you were blocked from searching Twitter for the hashtag #PIVX, even though that is technically impossible as it would 'break' Twitter. You also claim that your account (and others) was (were) blocked, but never provided a single screen shot showing that - and Twitter is very clear to explain when you are blocked, so that would have been super easy to provide if it actually happened. So, what was actually happening, is you were unaware of how to search on a hashtag, and were then judging social media efforts on that ignorance. Rather than admit your ignorance, you made up stories about being blocked, to protect your ego.

When you finally were searching properly on the #PIVX hashtag, you didn't see posts from @_PIVX or @PIVXcommunity, simply because there was so many other posts, and so much engagement, they were pushed way low on the search results. In other words, the constant effort over months and years, has been working! Not realizing this, implied you weren't even following the 2 PIVX Twitter accounts. I checked - and sure enough - you weren't. That's ridiculous for a MNO who is challenging social media efforts.

The above are facts. It is all documented in Discord and this forum.

Your combative attitude, refusal to ask questions respectfully, ignorance and bully tactics, only harm you and PIVX.

If you want to be respected and trusted in PIVX again here is the strategy I think will work. I can't know this for sure and it will take time, but it is the only possible way forward from what I can see.

1. Start being respectful to everyone.
2. Understand PIVX is a Meritocracy.
3. Accept that MNOs can only direct the flow of Treasury funds.
4. Understand that PIVX is a DAO, which is comprised of MNOs AND the Community.
5. Contribute where you can. (I see you have been climbing the learning curve on Twitter. That's good. Keep it up!)
6. Take emotion out of your decisions. If you don't like a person - but they are adding value to PIVX, support them!
7. Ask as many questions as you like, but don't assume you are the expert. LISTEN to the answers!
8. Remember, that most everyone is a volunteer at PIVX. Even those that are paid, volunteer many additional hours. They deserve respect!
9. Stop the bully tactics. They don't work. They hurt PIVX. They remove power from you too, because it kills any respect people have for you.
10. Apologize sincerely and profusely for your mistakes.

There are probably more points. I have made a similar list for you before. But, only after you have demonstrated you passed each of the points, for an extended period of time, can you hope to get access to the main PIVX Discord again. That's what I believe it will take. I don't know that. It is not for me to decide. However, what I do know, is that the path you are on is going the total opposite direction. I wouldn't be surprised if you get banned elsewhere if you keep it up. You have completely obliterated any TRUST people had with you, and as we all know, it takes a long time to regain trust.

Good luck!
 
Very interesting topic.. Will follow it. This also could bring up a question of rigged vote.. a violent takeover. Pixv, when being listed at Binance could potentially 'tasty' for bad players like this.

.. it seems a PIVX conference is needed, if you don't do these, already. .. so much to protect from so many aspects..
 
Great conversation happening! Let's try it another way. What happens when you no longer get funded?

Do you work for free?

Will you move on without a rant?

How bitter will you be? Will this bitterness lead to you causing harm to PIVX which should be the number one thing on everyone's mind....

Dev gets voted out can they delete the git hub?

Can they insert malicious code into the download releases? Let me answer that for you. Yes they can and has been done on other coins and you wouldn't even notice until it was to late.

If your in charge of the socials this can cause serious harm to the brand especially if their bitterness causes them to kamikaze the account.

Admin/moderator accounts on the social media create a sense of authority and banning people of different views or saying something you don't like has happened and is still happening. Just gotta look at the telegram to see that happening currently plus past experience.

CORE PIVX members or whatever you want to be called, you have no authority and you are not pivx. Your view is no different to any other persons except you have a colour on our name and have been granted banning and deleting power which you shouldn't have. You are no one but a branch of a whale who has asserted his control and placed these positions with no opposition.

Hopefully a discussion can happen but if not everyone needs to remember the votes control pivx funding which controls the direction on pivx not this group of people and I am glad recently this control has dwindled and more votes are happening to stop these money grab proposals. You can ban and silence views on some platforms but I guarantee if/once your funding is cut you won't be sticking around.
Listen, I get it; this space was built on the ethos of trust-less and your questions reveal much about your perspective: I would encourage you to dig in and figure out how to contribute in a constructive manner.

As a community member, I'll answer some of them from my limited perspective.

*Yes, I am a volunteer in this space. No funding required.
*No need to rant, I try to understand others and occasionally others want to understand me. If they don't get it, that's not my issue.
*Devs can't delete git hub, I myself have a complete copy of PIVX project both on GitHub- Along with 36K others, and on a few local machines- Decentralization is great.
*Individual devs can't insert malicious code, there are reviews required and many eyes on the process.
*Haven't joined TG but have experienced that personally in other projects. As far as twitter, I haven't seen any of that.
*Authority is often misplaced. Leadership is required however in any human endeavor. This decentralized environment has been a rather large learning curve for all. Give grace to receive it.
*I'll be sticking around so long the core principles of the project are preserved; protecting individual's privacy and thereby individual rights in a global marketplace.
 
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