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Ended Marketing BizDEV Jan-Jun 2021

Borris

Pivian
That's the issue. That you think it's a given that the prices negotiated by us to make that happen are something that needs to be made public for you to scrutinize over. It's not.

Also, as mentioned, they cannot be disclosed / linked. There's a good reason why they can't.

But you seem to not care how detrimental it can be to PIVX by revealing them. (or that it could benefit other coins. maybe that's your goal?)
No I'm am after openness for the masternode owners as you all have said is that is all they do, scrutinise proposals.

Your refusing to give basic information. You've spent 18k on stuff. List it, it should be a show of strength but instead you refuse to give any info that I'm pretty certain these so called free work are not free your just using the pot as your funds, you write an article then take a fee out of that. I'm trying to work out what fee that is as you are the ones setting that fee aswell. This should be through the budget system, your using the pot to cut out the vote. If that's not the case it's easy to prove that wrong, just list the breakdown.
 

jakiman

Administrator
No I'm am after openness for the masternode owners as you all have said is that is all they do, scrutinise proposals.

Your refusing to give basic information. You've spent 18k on stuff. List it, it should be a show of strength but instead you refuse to give any info that I'm pretty certain these so called free work are not free your just using the pot as your funds, you write an article then take a fee out of that. I'm trying to work out what fee that is as you are the ones setting that fee aswell. This should be through the budget system, your using the pot to cut out the vote. If that's not the case it's easy to prove that wrong, just list the breakdown.
Huh? When we say we do not get a single PIV, we mean it. NOTHING is paid to us for what we do. You have a problem with comprehension.

Also, your way of thinking how this budget system works is simply wrong.
You (any/all MNO) have ZERO control (nor say unless we ask) over how it is used once it is paid out.
And as much as that scares you, we spend it the best way we believe will benefit PIVX. Period.
If you don't trust us, simply vote no. That is all the control you have over us or this system.
 
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Snappy

Administrator
Staff member
Somehow the detail was lost (again). Borris, maybe it wasn't clear enough:

There is more that occurred beyond just two paid articles that are inside those amounts.

Now, you might be shouting "then show me what those are, I need an entire forensic accounting detailed worksheet so I can "appropriately" scrutinize your work because I am the MN holder, and you need to report everything to me to make my decisions..."

Here's the issue (beside the obvious one):

If we disclosed everything that was paid for, or how it was paid for, after careful consideration and work by the MBD folks (jakiman, ambassador, myself)... it would then reveal to the world (not just you) all the elements that were paid for.

Ok, so why is that an issue?

Per what was written in the original report....

There are NDA's and other agreements that preclude us from sharing how much was spent on items.

IF we share a line item breakdown of ALL the things that were paid for, then anyone with half a braincell could then go ok, you did these 5 things this month, and even at a HIGH price of PIVX, that means that all 5 things still cost less than "X" USD. That would immediately allow anyone to deduce and back-calculate that we were able to negotiate deals and discounts that CANNOT be disclosed or shared. Why? Because it not only puts those entities as risk, it also would breach our NDAs and agreements and destroy PIVX's reputation at honoring commitments and agreements.

Building relationships and negotiating with entities is an art. You do something like you're asking above, and you might as well kiss your entire reputation out the window and good luck trying to get biz dev work done.
 

Borris

Pivian
Huh? When we say we do not get a single PIV, we mean it. NOTHING is paid to us for what we do. You have a problem with comprehension.

Also, your way of thinking how this budget system works is simply wrong.
You (any/all MNO) have ZERO control (nor say unless we ask) over how it is used once it is paid out.
And as much as that scares you, we spend it the best way we believe will benefit PIVX. Period.
If you don't trust us, simply vote no. That is all the control you have over us or this system.
Then I am failing to see the what the fees have been spent on. Please show me. I want to know. If none of those reports and blog posts done by yourselves are taking any fee for them then the only other thing listed which doesn't involve any of you is those 2 paid promotions.

I have been told multiple times mn owners scrutinise the proposals so either they do or they don't. If i ask for that info as a masternode owner and you refuse to give the information asked for then just say I'm not going to provide you with any numbers of how we spend the money. We spend it as we please will suffice. Then can stop trying to claw basic information out if you.
 

Eric_Stanek

Administrator
Staff member
Borris,

There are basically 3 levels of financial reporting they can do.

1. Report nothing.
2. Report in as much detail as they can without breaking NDAs.
3. Report so much, that relationships break, competition gets far too much info, and PIVX Business Development fails.

You are stating if they can't do #3, they should do #1. You are welcome to your opinion, but each MNO will have their own opinion. Aiming for #2 is the best they can do and will satisfy those MNOs that want the details. MNOs who want less can just not read the reports.

They stated at least 3 times at the start, (See images attached) that they would be restricted on the amount of detail they could provide. Then during your requests for more detail, they stated it again multiple times. PLEASE READ THE PROPOSALS AND REPORTS COMPLETELY. That will prevent wasting time and causing frustration.

Personally, I appreciate the level of detail they report out. I need less, but I think it is important that people realize that these types of efforts are expensive. PIVX has not given Business Development and Marketing the financial priority it needs for a long time. For a long while, there were no funds available regardless, but just the same - people need to adjust their mindset on how much these things cost, so that we can elevate PIVX to the position it deserves.

Eric

_mbd_1.png


_mbd_2.png


_mbd_3.png
 

Snappy

Administrator
Staff member
Then I am failing to see the what the fees have been spent on. Please show me. I want to know. If none of those reports and blog posts done by yourselves are taking any fee for them then the only other thing listed which doesn't involve any of you is those 2 paid promotions.

I have been told multiple times mn owners scrutinise the proposals so either they do or they don't. If i ask for that info as a masternode owner and you refuse to give the information asked for then just say I'm not going to provide you with any numbers of how we spend the money. We spend it as we please will suffice. Then can stop trying to claw basic information out if you.
Ah, you seem to think that because I'm not getting paid for the weekly writeups, and other articles, that those shouldn't be "included" in the report.

Well, here is the crux:

I'm only doing those weekly writeups, and putting my energy into content FOR PIVX, because the masternode voters have deemed it worthwhile to fund the MBD proposals, and have decided that they trust the three of us enough to deliver content, relationships, listings, and more.

If these proposals hadn't passed or had been nuked, I would have taken that as a clear indication that my time/energy/views are not what's desired, and thus, I wouldn't be active anymore in PIVX.

I think you fail to appreciate that you're trying to divorce what "got paid" from the entirety of work/effort that goes INTO building up marketing, biz dev, and the like. You can't just remove one cog and expect the whole thing to run.

Without consistent drip feeds of marketing reports, or other writeups, there is no content on the website (or 3rd party sites) from which to seed awareness. Without that, there are not articles to then drive to social media for further awareness. Without that awareness, our "exposure" online is weak, and thus when we engage with exchanges, or articles, or etc, it looks really bad. Without that, we can't negotiate as good as deals, or build as solid of relationships.

That's just ONE example of the myriad of things we do for FREE for PIVX, in order to give our budgets, and activities, the best shot.

I CHOOSE to not get paid for those articles, so that there is MORE PIV available every month to go do the things that DO REQUIRE PIV. Just like I choose to NOT get paid by the hour for my time or efforts communicating with exchanges,or platforms, or etc.

That is 100% my choice, and my "sacrifice" to help this community. I could easily turn around and go put proposal in for 3k PIV a month to compensate me for my time, which even still, would pale in comparison to any normal hourly rate I bring in from other endeavors.

Please do try and see how the pieces all fit together.

You don't like the proposals? vote them down then. But understand - that means you're nuking the energy and passion of 3 people that are freely giving their time/talents and energy to help the projects, and also, those 3 people would most likely reduce their time/energy into all this "free" stuff that you seem to think doesn't "count".
 

Borris

Pivian
Ah, you seem to think that because I'm not getting paid for the weekly writeups, and other articles, that those shouldn't be "included" in the report.

Well, here is the crux:

I'm only doing those weekly writeups, and putting my energy into content FOR PIVX, because the masternode voters have deemed it worthwhile to fund the MBD proposals, and have decided that they trust the three of us enough to deliver content, relationships, listings, and more.

If these proposals hadn't passed or had been nuked, I would have taken that as a clear indication that my time/energy/views are not what's desired, and thus, I wouldn't be active anymore in PIVX.

I think you fail to appreciate that you're trying to divorce what "got paid" from the entirety of work/effort that goes INTO building up marketing, biz dev, and the like. You can't just remove one cog and expect the whole thing to run.

Without consistent drip feeds of marketing reports, or other writeups, there is no content on the website (or 3rd party sites) from which to seed awareness. Without that, there are not articles to then drive to social media for further awareness. Without that awareness, our "exposure" online is weak, and thus when we engage with exchanges, or articles, or etc, it looks really bad. Without that, we can't negotiate as good as deals, or build as solid of relationships.

That's just ONE example of the myriad of things we do for FREE for PIVX, in order to give our budgets, and activities, the best shot.

I CHOOSE to not get paid for those articles, so that there is MORE PIV available every month to go do the things that DO REQUIRE PIV. Just like I choose to NOT get paid by the hour for my time or efforts communicating with exchanges,or platforms, or etc.

That is 100% my choice, and my "sacrifice" to help this community. I could easily turn around and go put proposal in for 3k PIV a month to compensate me for my time, which even still, would pale in comparison to any normal hourly rate I bring in from other endeavors.

Please do try and see how the pieces all fit together.

You don't like the proposals? vote them down then. But understand - that means you're nuking the energy and passion of 3 people that are freely giving their time/talents and energy to help the projects, and also, those 3 people would most likely reduce their time/energy into all this "free" stuff that you seem to think doesn't "count".
I wanted to break down roughly where the funds were being spent.

You've now just confirmed you don't get paid for any of those reports and blog posts so that now leads me on to what the funds have been spent on. I assumed those blog posts, reports you were getting something especially with the detail you gave of things you do.

I have found these. Which I assume are the 2 paid things?



I'm sick of having to call it out. I don't want to have to sit here getting spoon fed very limited information. How hard is it to give a list of things you have paid for. You don't need to give prices, just a list of paid tasks.

You say your not getting paid yet the whole report is stuff you do for apparently free. The only info of paid work I can find is the 2 articles which I hope didn't cost that much.
 

Snappy

Administrator
Staff member
I wanted to break down roughly where the funds were being spent.

You've now just confirmed you don't get paid for any of those reports and blog posts so that now leads me on to what the funds have been spent on. I assumed those blog posts, reports you were getting something especially with the detail you gave of things you do.

I have found these. Which I assume are the 2 paid things?



I'm sick of having to call it out. I don't want to have to sit here getting spoon fed very limited information. How hard is it to give a list of things you have paid for. You don't need to give prices, just a list of paid tasks.

You say your not getting paid yet the whole report is stuff you do for apparently free. The only info of paid work I can find is the 2 articles which I hope didn't cost that much.

Please read all the replies in detail. Including the original posts. They answer your question (and apparent frustration) about not getting the level of detail you want.

here, I'll screenshot for you to make it simpler:


Screen Shot 2021-03-11 at 11.21.13 AM.png


So, per our disclosure and statement, we cannot share nor list everything that was "paid" for.

For further clarity on why, here:
Screen Shot 2021-03-11 at 11.18.22 AM.png


As for why "copy/articles" was included, here you go.
Screen Shot 2021-03-11 at 11.19.31 AM.png
 

Borris

Pivian
I don't want a line breakdown of things. I'm literally asking for we were published on this, this and this, this was paid work carried out by x. We now have 282 piv left in the pot. Your making out like I'm asking for the world. This is basic information.
 
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Eric_Stanek

Administrator
Staff member
Borris, just because it is basic, doesn't mean it can be provided without breaking NDA etc.
You are wasting everyone's time.
Please feel free to ask new questions. But the maximum level of detail possible to provide, has been.
A post with a repeat of the same questions will be ignored and/or deleted.
 

Ambassador

Moderator
I have found these. Which I assume are the 2 paid things?



I'm sick of having to call it out. I don't want to have to sit here getting spoon fed very limited information. How hard is it to give a list of things you have paid for. You don't need to give prices, just a list of paid tasks.

You say your not getting paid yet the whole report is stuff you do for apparently free. The only info of paid work I can find is the 2 articles which I hope didn't cost that much.
Stop making assumptions and build the entire story around totally wrong numbers. Also, you totally miscalculated spending by following the damn simple block explorer. When calculating expenses, either follow our reports posted above or if you want to play your investigating game, rather do it properly and consider real PIV outflows and not input UTXOs (remaining amount from input UTXO is returning back to Marketing Fund).

Anyways, why I came here is to expand your view a bit because it's really painful to watch your awful assumptions. Check official PIVX.org website's homepage, there are MANY new articles added besides 2 you keep mentioning. To help you even more, click on each and every logo of the following media sites to see the 4 more articles you are missing or intentionally ignoring to defame us: BTCManager, HackerNoon, AMBCrypto and Bitcoinist
 

Borris

Pivian
Stop making assumptions and build the entire story around totally wrong numbers. Also, you totally miscalculated spending by following the damn simple block explorer. When calculating expenses, either follow our reports posted above or if you want to play your investigating game, rather do it properly and consider real PIV outflows and not input UTXOs (remaining amount from input UTXO is returning back to Marketing Fund).

Anyways, why I came here is to expand your view a bit because it's really painful to watch your awful assumptions. Check official PIVX.org website's homepage, there are MANY new articles added besides 2 you keep mentioning. To help you even more, click on each and every logo of the following media sites to see the 4 more articles you are missing or intentionally ignoring to defame us: BTCManager, HackerNoon, AMBCrypto and Bitcoinist
I am working off the information you have provided in the report. I went in pivx.org site and saw all the ones snappy, you and Jaki have been doing but that has been said multiple times you don't get any funds for them? Is that correct?

If those articles btc manager, Hackerton, ambcrypto, bitcoinist have been done I have not seen them. Post them in your report! Again I have a little bit more info but this is getting difficult. If those were things paid for out of these funds why no mention of them? Terrik said he paid for some. Which ones? Assume none of them?

I have to ask these questions as is my right as a masternode owner, to scrutinise like you all made clear that is all mn owners do so when questions come don't expect them to be ye it's snappy, ambassador and jaki, leave them to it.

You may not like the questions, you may not give me the answer I want but just say that instead of all these long discussions repeating myself. You've just shown me more than what the reports said in one reply. Those are things that show its worth.
 

Borris

Pivian
Borris, just because it is basic, doesn't mean it can be provided without breaking NDA etc.
You are wasting everyone's time.
Please feel free to ask new questions. But the maximum level of detail possible to provide, has been.
A post with a repeat of the same questions will be ignored and/or deleted.
That's a typical lefty response.

Not happy about my posts now being moderated. Can't take the questions from another point of view so you silence it.
 

Eric_Stanek

Administrator
Staff member
Borris, you are the first person to have moderation forced. I am trying to figure out how to moderate your posts. It is not clear yet. Please give me a bit.
 

Eric_Stanek

Administrator
Staff member
I will also add Borris, that your failed logic, bad math, and inability to read a Block Explorer, are causing you to post lots of misinformation. That hurts PIVX.

In order to get your posts approved quickly, please read the reports, stick to facts, and get the math right. Failed reading comprehension, bad assumptions, and other obvious mistakes, might get your posts deleted during moderation and they won't get published. We're gonna treat them on a case-by-case basis. If it is blatantly obvious to the reader where your mistake is, we may publish it. If it is easily corrected or clarified, we may correct it. But mostly, you are proving to be a big waste of time. Your motives are not clear, but they are certainly not for the betterment of PIVX.

Please see this Tweet to understand our position on the matter.
 

Borris

Pivian
My views of how things are run are different to yours. This is always going to be the problem. It's not your right to delete that view tho but you can choose to ignore them. I'm not forcing you to reply. But to delete another person's views, ban them on discord and moderate all posts because it doesn't align with yours is not a decentralised project.

The votes decide where funding goes, so as a voter I want as much information as possible to decide if that's where the funds should go. You can choose to ignore my requests or to reply to get clarity as that is your right. Then the votes decide.

It's that simple.
 

Ambassador

Moderator
I am working off the information you have provided in the report. I went in pivx.org site and saw all the ones snappy, you and Jaki have been doing but that has been said multiple times you don't get any funds for them? Is that correct?

If those articles btc manager, Hackerton, ambcrypto, bitcoinist have been done I have not seen them. Post them in your report! Again I have a little bit more info but this is getting difficult. If those were things paid for out of these funds why no mention of them? Terrik said he paid for some. Which ones? Assume none of them?

I have to ask these questions as is my right as a masternode owner, to scrutinise like you all made clear that is all mn owners do so when questions come don't expect them to be ye it's snappy, ambassador and jaki, leave them to it.

You may not like the questions, you may not give me the answer I want but just say that instead of all these long discussions repeating myself. You've just shown me more than what the reports said in one reply. Those are things that show its worth.
Where did we ever say that we get any of the funds for these articles? It simply has its cost to have PIVX published on multiple world's largest crypto media sites.

Of course these 4 weren't mentioned in report, because they were published last week, after the report. The next report would simply have them covered.

I don't want to comment any assumptions you are making here again, these articles are our product - product of MBD team. I don't know which articles Terrik paid, I have zero information about them, I'm commenting only about these 6 in total that we realized and they are already published on PIVX.org website.

If spending happened from Marketing Fund, it does not mean results/products are visible immediately. Even in this case you've seen that some of the articles were scheduled to go out 1-2 weeks after they were paid from the Marketing Fund. Again, you are obviously not trusting us at all and even going further with accusations that we are spending Marketing Fund to pay ourselves for the work, which is a complete nonsense. So, feel free to downvote the proposal if you don't like it, all of us tried multiple times to explain you some things, you are one and the only one that doesn't get it. Sorry.
 

Eric_Stanek

Administrator
Staff member
Borris, you are going the wrong direction. Your posts are not moderated because of a different view. Your posts are moderated because you are wasting everyone's time with repetition, failed logic, misinformation, and just generally breaking common sense rules. Ambassador just proved your failed logic with his points.

We will now escalate by moderating your posts once per day to be more efficient with our time.
 

Eric_Stanek

Administrator
Staff member
I am making an assumption here, but I don't think that there is a MNO that requires the level of detail being provided by the Marketing Biz Dev team.
The level requested has clearly crossed the line into 'micro managing' and should not be supported.
Further, it is clear that no matter how detailed the information is, @Borris will never be happy. Also, the more info provided, the more time he is able to waste.
I suggest that the Marketing Biz Dev team scale back on the level of detail, but add as necessary to support MNO questions.
The exception to this would be to completely ignore @Borris which he correctly states is indeed their right.
 

Borris

Pivian
Maybe a better report structure is needed. Seperate paid work into a section as atm the report is filled up with apprant free work you guys do. It hasn't even got everything included as ambassador has mentioned a few things already. Show what is being paid for not volunteer work.

The whole report is stuff you guys say you do for FREE which is great 👍 we know your all an asset. But as you have all said the only job a masternode owner does is scrutinise proposals to decide where funding is placed. So without knowing how that money is being spent and for us to just trust your spending it correctly and to its maximum use, with no record for everyone to see I guess it's for the masternode owners to decide.
 
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